panthera_sapien (panthera_sapien) wrote in trans_kink,

FtM and/or butch (and new to the group)

Hello everyone -- I'm Vic. I'm new to the group... 19... FtM... Been in the BDSM community for about a year and half, and have been slowly coming to have some kind of grasp on the leather community. And... for the question below, I'm mostly sexually oriented towards men.

So here's my question/issue. I have decided to transition and should be starting T before long. I recently told a friend of my plans, a friend who is in the leather and lesbian communities, and she was cool with my decision, but suggested that I interview some very butch women and see where they stand on these sorts of issues -- the women who, as a friend put it, "are more Sir-ish than some men." I have also, in general, been trying to figure out the difference between a butch woman and an FtM -- it seems to be just the way they choose to identify themselves.

So, what do you have to say on this idea?

(And, somehow, I get the feeling that this entry will be slightly offensive. If so, I would appreciate advice on how to avoid that in the future.)
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Not sure why your friend want you to talk to butches about transitioning unless they are butches who also ID as ftm or trans. My experience with butch leather dykes around my transition and others has not always been pleasant. I've never ided as a dyke or even very butch but some of them seemed very offended or pissed that I was transitioning and told me that I didn't need T to be masculine. They seemed to miss the point that for me I wasn't taking T to be masculine but because I am more male than female. Some older leather dykes were cool with me taking T and even having top surgery but didn't understand why I would want to use male pronouns all the time. I still get a lot of mixed messages from leather dykes on the one hand being friendly and inviting me to leather women's events (which I don't attend as I feel I no longer belong to those spaces) and flirting with me more than before I transition but then not liking that I identify as ftm, queer and not female.

I have met many people including my spouse who ids as both butch and trans and for them it about a mix of both gender and masculinity but at the same time while there is overlap there is also a difference.
as for you question about the difference between butch and ftm there a couple of huge differences. A butch woman usually identifies as a woman, is comfortable having a female body, does not identify as male fulltime. FTM stands for female to male and usually someone who ids as FTM is somewhere on the spectrum towards being male. Not to mention one is about masculinity and the other is about being male. not sure why you are asking about what is FTM in a leather forum. you really should post on FTM, the replies would be very interesting. You also may want to check out the genderqueer community.

Aound here, butch women are just that -- women who love women. FtMs are guys with female-appearing body parts. It comes down to whether or not you identify as a woman. There's a big difference between a masculine woman, even a bearded woman, and a person who may have female body parts but only sees himself as male.
I have to agree with the above responder as to not understanding why your friend suggested that you talk to the butch women. Are they thinking you might just be butch and not FtM? If you are FtM and want to get involved in BDSM activities as a man, you should probably be talking to other men and FtMs about safe spaces and ideas, not to butch women who probably aren't going to be interested in playing with you the way you'd like.

By "around here" I meant the area of the country I live in, not this lj community. Sorry for that. Typing instead of thinking. :)
hmm. If you are oriented toward play with men, and id as ftm, I'm assuming you id also as a faggot of some variety. I have met butch women who identified as faggots, who did masculine on masculine play/sex. If your friend was suggesting that you talk to them, that makes sense to Me. I've also met butches who played with cisgendered faggots, again, it might be useful to talk to them. There are also many genderqueers and transguys who play/fuck as faggots with each other, butches, and with cisgender faggots. If you are trying to find out how T might impact your play/sex life it might make sense to talk to them, and particularly to talk to other transguys about how T has impacted their sex/kink lives.

I am curious as to why your friend wants you to take a poll in order to make decisions about what you will do with your body. What will you use the information for? Do others get to decide what you will do with your body? Some butches on the far ends of the masculine spectrum are supportive of trans guys, some are not; in My experience support for transfolk in dyke
communities generally breaks down on generational lines.

I have to say that if you id as a faggot, and you talk to butches about that, some of them might not only have issues with trans stuff, but also with transguys and butches being with other masculine folks.

Do you think your friend has an agenda for these conversations? What might it be?

I have been part of trans community for 12 years, and only recently started T; I am also very involved in kink community, and a faggot Myself. If you have specific questions for Me, you can ask them. Have you been involved in the fag leather scene where you are? How have you been received there? Have you been hanging out with mostly leather dykes? Do you want to be part of leather dyke community where you are? If you do, you might find it challenging if you transition; that is not said to influence your decision, simply to be realistic. Many transguys mourn the loss of dyke community, and find that it is challenging to find queer communities that accept them fully, in My experience.
"I'm assuming you id also as a faggot of some variety."

Just a note to the OP: many of us identify as gay men, and the word "faggot" and "faggy" is often used by FTMs in a way that is different than how many gay men's communities use it. You don't have to ID as a faggot - of any variety. Nothing against the word for whoever it works for - but as an ID, I disagree that it is mandatory for someone female assigned at birth.

[My social location - gay leatherman, trans-historied, far more happy, comfortable, and experienced in the men's community than in the lesbian or pansexual. Over a decade since starting medical transition.]

tgstonebutch and I live and play in very different contexts - but if you are talking with nontrans gay men about participation in the leather and BDSM community, let them lead with the language. Some will use 'fag,' but more and more often, where I travel anyway, that word is being used by FTMs referring to a certain way of expressing "gay." And you can express it however you like.

And sure - some lesbians are more "Sir-ish" than some men. Most of the nontrans male tops, sirs, and masters I know don't need to go overboard, and have a very efficient and even understated masculinity. Dominance isn't intrinsically gendered. So once again, judging someone by the extent to which they "flag" one gender or another isn't going to give you a sense of what is right for you. Only you can know that.

Good luck.

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Awesome to hear other transmasculine people not letting the gender/sex binary limit how they want to live their lives. Gives me hope that I can actually pull it off! Thanks :)
I am a butch who considers myself transmasculine, NOT F2M. Though I considered transitioning a few times over the years, I realized that for ME I really liked being a gender-what-the-fuck-is-that. So biologically I am female, my gender is genderqueer. I consider man and woman to be social constructs that do not apply to me.

The only down side, to me, of not having transitioned is constantly correcting people's pronouns and deciding on a case by case basis which bathroom to use. ;-)


Awesome to hear other transmasculine people not letting the gender/sex binary limit how they want to live their lives. Gives me hope that I can actually pull it off! Thanks :)